Talk:Wild (adj)
Wild - Dikvij - Dikij - Divij - Divokij Divkij??? O_o This would a Polish man understand as whore''s. Wouldn't it be better to take dikij and divij? Poloniak 11:37, July 24, 2010 (UTC) !!! - Hmmmm...I did not consider '"'dziewka". Good point! It would, indeed, be inappropriate to have either "dzivki"' or' "divki"' here. The challenge is to create a mutually schematical or neological word that would be recognised by all the Branches as meaning' "wild". Given the conflict you point out above, we may only have the option of having two different forms. But will the different Branch speakers understand the other? Personally, even though my Slavic "base" languages are Polish and Russian, for some reason I cannot recognise "DIKI" as easily as I can recognise "DZIKI". But my personal understanding here does not really matter. The voting machine yields the following: *'''RU: дикий *'BY: дзікі' *'UA: дикий' *'PL: dziki' *'CZ: divoký' *'SK: divoký' *'SL: divji' *'HR: divlji' *'BS: divlji' *'SR: divlji' *'MK: диви' *'BG: див' *'– diki: 2 votes (195 mln. speakers)------------2.0 votes -- 195 miln speakers' *'– dziki: 1.5 votes (59 mln. speakers)---------1.5 votes -- 59 miln speakers' *'– divoki: 1 votes (18 mln. speakers) ---------1.0 votes -- 18 miln speakers' *'– divli: 0.5 votes (19 mln. speakers) }' *'– divi: 0.5 votes (2 mln. speakers) } ----- 1.5 votes -- 30 miln speakers' *'– div: 0.5 votes (9 mln. speakers }' Based on the above, we should have three different forms: "DIKIJ" "DZIKIJ" '''and "DIVIJ"''' Steevenusx 18:43, July 24, 2010 (UTC) '''PLEASE NOTE: There has been question/issue as to whether the word-form "DZIKI" should be classified as the equivalent of "DIKI" for purposes of voting. Under Slovianski "rules" this is considered to be the case. For Slovioski-style Interslavic, in this instance only, the sound "DZI-" would merit its own sound recognition. Please see comments below by Jan Van Steenbergen, Andrej Moraczewski and Steevenusx in this regard.' ' --Steevenusx 15:29, August 3, 2010 (UTC) PLEASE SIGN YOUR COMMENTS!! '''PLEASE SIGN YOUR COMMENTS!' Prosim klavjaturij svoja podpisa, kda napisaš postanje. Abi to delati, kliknij na podpisnej knopke (vidij pogorje), ili možiš klavjaturiti čiteri tildi: ~ ~ ~ ~ (ale jedin po drugim) ---- The main problem is with Southern Slavic speakers, for whom dzikij would not be any more understandable than dikij, more likely it will harden the understanding. We should ask them how they understand some sentence with this word, (not the word alone, please! the context plays major role in understanding of IS). If they have problems with "dikij", probably we should consider "divokij". Moraczewski 20:29, July 24, 2010 (UTC) Hmmmm...' "divokij"' > - from my "Polish ear" I would hear "chimes" or "bells" ~ "dzwonek" / "dzwonki" - from my "Russian ear" I would hear "girls" ~ "девоки" ...and, while'' I like wild girls with bells, I would be very confused by '"divokij" ' ':>)' Steevenusx 21:47, July 24, 2010 (UTC) So what about dikij first? Moraczewski 06:47, July 26, 2010 (UTC) It 'IS' first. ... Ah! I see. The IS Online Dictionary has not updated yet. Once updated, it' "dikij"' will appear first. Steevenusx 07:04, July 26, 2010 (UTC) Oh no! I though you have read my pre-previous post, where I asked, whether "dikij" is understandable for Southern Slavs. Is it? Moraczewski 09:03, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ---- DZI in Polish and Belarusian is the regular reflex of DI, so it should by no means be treated as anything other than that. A similar thing goes for DIVLI, because BCS adds LJ between a labial and E/I very often. Both DZIKI and DIVLI are therefore out of the question; otherwise, you might as well treat the Ukrainian word as a vote for DYK- instead of DIK. Be careful when you use the voting machine: it's better to eliminate such regionalisms (like Ukrainian Y, Polish nasals and DZ etc.) beforehand. I'd interpret the results as follows: * diki: 3 votes (251 mln. speakers) * divi: 2 votes (32 mln. speakers) * divoki: 1 votes (18 mln. speakers) DIKI is the winner both in terms of votes and in terms of speakers. However, I don't know if it will be understood by South Slavs. DIVI certainly won't be understood by Poles, for example. If anything, I'd say DIVOKI might be a reasonable compromise, even if it's a minority solution. IJzeren Jan 00:34, July 31, 2010 (UTC) '''Or (playing advocate of the devil now), if you really want to go for a portmanteau word, then perhaps' "DIKVI" would be better than DIVKI. It doesn't really make it easy for anybody, but it might at least evoke the right connotations when used in a context: "Moja žena staje dikva, kogda uvide mene s toju čapkoju!" IJzeren Jan 00:43, July 31, 2010 (UTC) Otlično! Steevenusx 02:50, July 31, 2010 (UTC) What about diki? You should check it on South Slavs before taking any other decision. Check, of course, within appropriate context. Just send an e-mail. Moraczewski 13:27, July 31, 2010 (UTC) Well...Southern Speakers do not understand "DIKIJ" - but they DO understand better "DIKVIJ" (one of my kolegi just emailed me and suggested''' "DIK-VI-LIJ") (!!!) Steevenusx 18:53, July 31, 2010 (UTC) And why don't you consider divokij? Moraczewski 19:57, August 1, 2010 (UTC) Andrej....Please see my comments above re''. "divokij"'' I like Jan's suggestion/solution best (and perhaps as a Level 2 choice the suggestion of my HR kolega: "dikvilij") Steevenusx 02:13, August 2, 2010 (UTC) Again, "I like", "I like"... it is not YOUR language! we must have level 1 word 04:11, August 2, 2010 (UTC) Andrej....well, while "I like" something; you apparently do "not like" something, ''otherwise'' you would not raise such a fuss. We cannot have a common, pure, current Slavic word as Level 1; because the NatLangs are all different. JAN's suggestion is, in my opinion, an excellent compromise; and IMHO it should be shown as a Level 1 word. ---- *|interslavic = 'DIKVIJ'' *'|russian = дикий''' *'|ukrainian = дикий' *'|belarussian = дзікі' *'|polish = dziki' *'|czech = divoký' *'|slovak = divoký' *'|kashubian = dzëwi' *'|uppersorbian = dźiwi' *'|lowersorbian = źiwy' *'|slovene = divji' *'|bosnian = divlji' *'|croatian = divlji' *'|serbian = дивљи' *'|macedonian = диви' *'|bulgarian = див' *'|bcs = divlji' *'|slovio = dikju' *'|slovianski = dikvi' ---- MORE COMMENTS: Well, it was only a DI(VO)K(V)A idea, nothing like a serious proposal. DIKVI undeniably has some qualities in that it looks like a fair compromise and it won't easily be misunderstood as something else. DIVOKI has the advantage that it actually exists, while DIKI would be the obvious winner in terms of votes, and DIVI has etymology on its side. Whatever you guys may like or dislike, DIKVI is a typical example of a zxrakula word and as such it won't be liked/accepted by a lot of people. Personally, I believe that words like that may come in handy in certain cases, but generally should be avoided. We surely don't want to end up with monsters like: ODPOVEDATI + OTVEČATI = ODPOVEČATI. IJzeren Jan 07:46, August 2, 2010 (UTC) True. Andrej and I have discussed this (often) previously. And we've concluded (between ourselves) that constructed words (as primary words) will only be plausible in those instances where the word form is different in most of the NatLangs - which is the case here. I find it ironic that this word - "WILD" - has raised so much issue - with many people. My kolegi cannot come to an agreement - although they like your suggestion, perhaps, best - because it allows the "D-K-I" speakers and the "D-V-I" speakers to still recognise a semblance of "their own" word within the word form. Yes, yes, I understand "the vote" - of 2 Votes and 195 million speakers would have us declare "DIKI" the winner. But this always brings back that touchy issue of the Eastern Slavic words trumping everyone else (and certainly not contributing to the "Slavic Unity" effort. Indeed, I was pleased to see the Southern Speakers contributions to the Slovianski Forum - because it verified the heat I was constantly getting from my Južni kolegi all-the-time (and even from CZ / SK!). Steevenusx 08:15, August 2, 2010 (UTC) It's actually 3 votes (and a solid majority of speakers), which is the minimum majority required for inclusion in Slovianski. However, more often than not this majority consists of East Slavic + Polish, which I admit is a disadvantage that might cause some undesired bias. For obvious reasons it can't be avoided that South Slavic is often outvoted, but this is no such case IMO. IJzeren Jan 08:37, August 2, 2010 (UTC) ---- Jan - "3 votes" I do not think that is correct - at least from this perspective: I found that the Voting Machine does not distinguish between "DIKI" and "DZIKI". If you separate these two out, then you have the following vote: *'– diki: 2 votes (195 mln. speakers)------------2.0 votes -- 195 miln speakers' *'– dziki: 1.5 votes (59 mln. speakers)---------1.5 votes -- 59 miln speakers' *'– divoki: 1 votes (18 mln. speakers) ---------1.0 votes -- 18 miln speakers' *'– divli: 0.5 votes (19 mln. speakers) }' *'– divi: 0.5 votes (2 mln. speakers) } ----- 1.5 votes -- 30 miln speakers' *'– div: 0.5 votes (9 mln. speakers }' With the last three lumped together as "DIV-" = 1.5 votes Thus, pure '"DIKI" only has 2.0 votes. To my Polish ears, "DIKI" is a very different sound than "DZIKI" ..... In fact, to my Polish speaking family members - "DIKI" sounds very strange to them - and none of them (I tested 6 of them) understood it to be "WILD". (NOTE: there are also some other anomalies in the Voting Machine that I have noted, which I believe yield an incorrect vote; however, I did not write those down). Steevenusx 18:33, August 2, 2010 (UTC) No, still I don't see any clear answer, why divoki ''can not be used. Moraczewski 18:54, August 2, 2010 (UTC) What nonsense, Steeven! As you must be perfectly aware, the sequence DI doesn't even exist in Polish (only in fairly recent loans like "radio", "diagram" etc. DZI is the normal Polish reflex of whenever Russian, Czech etc. have DI, just like DZIE is the regular reflex of DE. In other cases, Polish writes DY ("dyplom"), which in cases like that can't be treated as a vote for DY vs. DI either. The Z in DZIKI is simply an orthographical matter, unrelated to DZ in MIĘDZY or PIENIĄDZE. In fact, DZI differs as much from DY as SI differs from SY. When it comes to pronunciation, djiki would be much closer to the truth than dziki (with hard z). Treating this Z as a separate phoneme is completely wrong, because it's nothing even close to that. Following that logic, you'd end up with the same problem in all other cases where DE, TE, DI and TI sequences are involved, too. It just proves that you can't take orthography as a starting point. The idea of the voting machine is partly to slovianskize certain things (like orthography and a few national anomalies) beforehand. For the very same reason, you can't treat Russian DOBRYJ, Polish DOBRY and Serbian DOBAR as votes for three different things either (unless you make a vote regarding adjective ending only); or Polish POWODZIĆ as something necessarily different from POVODIT'. I've tried to eliminate a few of these differences, but I am aware that the system has quite a few flaws as well. And FWIW, I agree with Andrei that DIVOKI should at least be taken seriously as another compromise candidate. IJzeren Jan 19:17, August 2, 2010 (UTC) Nonsense! The fact is that Polish "DZIKI" is pronounced in varying degrees from "DZIKI" - as Russian "ДЖИКИ" to "DJIKI" So it is indeed a very different sound than "DI-KI". In short, it is NOT just an orthographical matter - there is a distinctive sound difference! ....and certainly if "DI-KI" is not understood by a Polish speaker versus "DZIKI" - then that is paramountly significant! Steevenusx 19:53, August 2, 2010 (UTC) JAN - if we had 5 NatLangs that used the form DZIKI and one DIKI and one DIVLI - because you are tied to rules of DZ always becomes DI, the word would, by force, have to be DIKI? ...notwithstanding that the majority of the languages in this example used DZIKI....... Yes, yes, I know you are very rules oriented; but languages and people do not necessarily accommodate themselves neatly to such rules. Compromises are achieved. Steevenusx 07:41, August 3, 2010 (UTC) EXAMPLES: Go to this site: 'TEXT TO SPEECH WEBSITE ' and enter in for Polish: '''DIKI' and DIKA first....and then DZIKI and DZIKA second - please have both male and female voices pronounce these words - especially ZOSIA. You will hear a distinct differeence between the pronunciations of these words in Polish - and recognise immediately that this is not merely an'' "orthographical matter". Steevenusx 02:41, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Steeven, it was not me who wrote about nonsense! Still I comment. Polish dziki is NEVER pronounced as Russian джики. I am sure. For Poles dz is not two sounds d+z, but one sound - very soft d. And if you like to make such regular differencies, why don't you treat Ukrainian as vote for DY? And my comment was: why can't we use ''divoki. Moraczewski 05:44, August 3, 2010 (UTC) And do Poles understand DIKVJA ŽENA better than DIKA ŽENA?... Moraczewski 07:22, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Andrej, you are right. It was JAN who used the word "nonsense". My apology to you Andrej. That is one the reasons I encourage signatures to be on a separate line and not at the end of the text - so to differentiate between authors. In response to whether a Pole will understand DIKVJA ŽENA better than DIKA ŽENA? The more appropriate question is "Will a POLE and SERB and a CROATE understand DIKJA/DIKA ŽENA? Or will they both understand better''' DIKVJA/DIKVA ŽENA'? I doubt either of them will understand '''DIVOKJA ŽENA' Steevenusx 07:36, August 3, 2010 (UTC) I doubt that Russians will understand DIKVA. Probably they will associate it with "тыква" (lol). DIVOKA is far far far more understandable. Note: I never said that "I like DIVOKA and don't like anything else"! And you somewhere refer to my words as "Jarvi likes the word DIVOKA". This is not true. Moraczewski 09:04, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Hi there, I've read the whole discussion, and now I want to say my opinion(s): If I see in other languages at the beginning di-, then I read it for myself as "dzi-", which sounds not like dz, but like dź (zi = źi), an example: дивний (ukr), dziwny (pol), źiwny (dsb). So the sound di (or dy) changed to dź/dzi and in Lower Sorbian to ź-. Only dz- which sounds like one sound дз- is in other languages ž or dž (dzban (pol), džán (cz), жбан (rus, hr/srb)) or z (dzwonić (pol), звонить (rus), zvoniti (hr/srb), zvoniť (sk)). So this two are different. Imho the best solution would be diki and as second word divi, because just this two words exist, so why shouldn't they be used both? This is not to much. Divoka žena I would understand as strange woman, and dikva I wouldn't understand, but this is my opinion. --Poloniak 11:23, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Hello Steeven and friends! Well, from slovene opinion "divoki" and "diki' looks and sounds strange to me and "dikvi" at first I did not like, but now my opinion is that it is best for everyone to understand. We use some other words like this too and first they sound strange but then very easy to use. Big importance is that the word chosen will not conflict with similar word in other language. If the word is made up (iztvorilnij) that is OK but best it looks and sounds slavic. Krokar 21:53, August 5, 2010 (UTC) Johannes..You have finally posted here! Dobrodošli! '' ''This word - WILD - is a good example of an Interslavic dilemma, because the word is especially different for each of the three Branches - and, indeed, even within the Western Branch itself ("Dikij" vs. "Divokij"). '' The ARTICLE page shows three different forms, preceded by QUESTION MARKS ??? As you can see from reading the above comments, there is no final agreement here (yet). I do understand your comment and choice to use "DIKVIJ" - and I do believe that everyone will - like you - become quickly accustomed to it. But Moraczewski and Jan and Poloniak all have valid reasons for their preferences - or, should I say, they know what they "do not like." ''Hvala te! Steevenusx 03:52, August 6, 2010 (UTC) Steeven, I "don't like it", because the origin of this two words are different and both are Slavic. That's why I think diki (from Proto-Slavic *dikъ) and divi (from Proto-Slavic *divjь) should be both used as synonyms, and not a mix of this two. --Poloniak 16:41, August 7, 2010 (UTC) Poloniak - you make a very good point. Thank you. Steevenusx 17:05, August 7, 2010 (UTC) PROPOSED WORDS (''for "LEVELS" go to: www.interslavic.com '')